Daveed Gartenstein-Ross

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FOR The Rosenkranz Foundation/
Intelligence Squared US
DATE 4/15/08
Islam is dominated by radicals
Moderator: Robert Siegel
For the motion: Daveed Gartenstein-Ross, Paul Marshall, Asra Nomani
Against the motion: Reza Aslan, Richard Bulliet, Edina Lekovic
RESULTS
Before the debate:
For the motion: 46%
Against the motion: 32%
Undecided: 22%
After the debate:
For the motion: 73%
Against the motion: 23%
Undecided: 4%
ROBERT SIEGEL
I’d like to introduce Robert Rosenkranz, who is Chairman of the
Rosenkranz Foundation which is the sponsor of Intelligence
Squared and he will frame tonight’s debate. Bob. [APPLAUSE]
ROBERT ROSENKRANZ
Thank you, Robert. Thank you very much, and welcome. Well,
my task this evening is to frame tonight’s debate, and I frankly
find it a bit challenging. Unlike most of our debates, which speak
to policy, this one is about facts. Islam has some one and a half
billion adherents. Muslims in America seem quite well integrated
into our society. Arabs account for only twenty-five percent of all
Muslims. The majority are found throughout Asia. But the
radical Islamic movement in the Arab world, their doctrines of
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jihad, holy war, their tactics of terror – that’s what sort of shapes
our view. Well, is this view distorted? The polling data is not
reassuring. Consider the following examples. In Pakistan,
Indonesia, Morocco and Egypt between seventy-three percent and
ninety-two percentbelieve that the U.S. goal is definitely or
probably to weaken and divide Islam. In the same countries, only
nine to twenty-three percent believe that the goal of the U.S. war
on terror is to protect itself from terror attacks. In those
countries, around twenty percent of those surveyed supported Al
Qaeda’s attacks on Americans and more than seventy percent
agreed with such Al Qaeda goals as deterring U.S. support for
Israel pushing Western values and Western militaries out of
Islamic countries and affirming Muslim dignity by standing up to
America.
And it’s astonishing to note that only between two and thirty-five
percent of those polled identified Al Qaeda as behind the 9/11
attacks. In contrast, twenty to thirty-eight percent identified the
U.S. or Israel as the perpetrators of 9/11. And to end on a deeply
confusing note, in Egypt eighty-eight percent agree that groups
like Al Qaeda that use violence against civilians are violating the
principles of Islam, yet sixty percent believe that suicide bombers
are often or sometimes justified. Well, what are we to make of all
of this? From a geopolitical standpoint, are the radicals the only
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ones who matter? Does their organization, intensity and violence
effectively intimidate more moderate voices? Are we engaged, in
Samuel Huntington’s formulation, in a clash of civilizations? Or
is that precisely the characterization that the radicals hope to
provoke? I’m confident that tonight’s panel can shed some light
and it’s my pleasure to turn the evening over to our long-time
radio host, and the host of NPR’s All Things Considered – Robert
Siegel.
ROBERT SIEGEL
Thank you, Bob. [APPLAUSE] Thank you. And I’d like to
welcome you to this, the ninth debate of the second Intelligence
Squared U.S. series. The resolution that’s being debated tonight
is: Islam is dominated by radicals. And I’m going to give you a
brief rundown of the evening. Members of each team will
alternate in presenting their side of the argument. Presentations
are limited, strictly limited, to seven minutes each. When
opening arguments are complete, I’ll open up the floor to brief
questions from the audience, and after the Q&A session, each
debater will make a final two minute summation. And finally,
you will vote on tonight’s motion with the keypad that’s attached
to the armrest of your seat and I’ll announce your decision on
which side carried the day.
Let’s begin, though, with a pre-debate vote. I’d like you to pick up
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the keypad that’s attached to the armrest on your left. And, for
audience members sitting along the aisle to my right, your keypad
is attached to the armrest on your right side, next to your
neighbor’s. Has everybody found their keypad? Shall we take a
vote on whether you’ve found your keypad? [LAUGHTER] Good.
Now, tonight’s resolution is: Islam is dominated by radicals.
After my prompt, press one to vote for the motion, two to vote
against the motion and three if you are undecided. You may
begin voting now. [PAUSE] And I will be informed of and reveal
the results of your vote later in the evening. I’d like now to
introduce the panel, and please hold your applause until all six of
our panelists are introduced.
For the motion, first, the Vice-President at the Foundation for
Defense of Democracies, Daveed Gartenstein-Ross; Senior Fellow
in the Center for Religious Freedom at the Hudson Institute, Paul
Marshall; and Professor in the practice of Journalism at
Georgetown University School of Continuing Studies and former
Wall Street Journal reporter, Asra Nomani. Against the motion,
Assistant Professor of Creative Writing at the University of
California, Riverside, and Fellow at the University of Southern
California Center on Public Diplomacy, Reza Aslan; Professor of
History at Columbia University, Richard Bulliet; and Director of
Communications for the Muslim Public Affairs Council, Edina
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Lekovic. Those are our six panelists. [APPLAUSE] First,
opening statements to be delivered from the podium and the
order of presentation begins with Paul Marshall, speaking for the
motion – seven minutes. With one minute left you’ll hear me say,
“one,” which will be a warning.
PAUL MARSHALL
Good. Okay, thank you very much for inviting us all this evening
and thank you for being here. We in favor of this motion argue
that Islam is dominated by radicals. What do we mean by
radicals? We mean those who are striving for a political order
representing a reactionary version of Islam that denies legal and
civic equality to men and women and also denies it on the basis
of religion. It also denies freedom of speech and freedom of
thought. We believe such trends, such people, currently
dominate world Islam. Let us be quite clear about what we are
not arguing. We are not arguing that Islam itself is inherently
radical. Like any other movement, Islam takes different forms at
different times. Also, we are not arguing that most Muslims are
radical. Most are not.
But what we are saying is that it is the radicals who have their
hands on the levers of power. They are, to pick a word, the
hegemonic. They’re the most powerful driving force. They’re
tending to set the direction and shaping the future of Islam in the
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modern world. They do this not because they have superior
numbers, but because they are extremely focused in what they
want. They’re clear about it. They are often well organized.
They’re often very well funded, often by Saudi Arabia and they are
very, very committed, being quite willing to often kill themselves
and to kill other people, especially Muslims. So this is what we’re
arguing. To illustrate this I just want to show some of the trends
which we have seen in the world in the last twenty-five to thirty
years. Some twenty-nine years ago, of the major Muslim
countries in the world only one -- Saudi Arabia - maintained that
its political and constitutional order was a reflection of what it
regards as original Islam and that it has accepted no foreign or
infidel accretions.
Saudi Arabia was, and is, one of the world’s most repressive
states. Many, many examples could be given but I just mention
one recent incident when three Saudi intellectuals sent a petition
to the king – a petition asking for a gradual move towards a
constitutional government. They were charged with using – I
quote – un-Islamic terminology. The un-Islamic terminology they
used in their petition included the word human rights and
democracy. So we have the situation of Saudi some thirty years
ago. Then in February of 1979, the Ayatollah Komeini overthrows
the Shah and establishes a draconian regime in Iran, which also
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since then has become one of the most repressive regimes in the
world.
It bars anybody who is not a Muslim from having any authority
over a Muslim. It bars Muslims who do not support the regime’s
version of Islam from running for political office. One other
example: In Iran, if you kill someone who is a member of one of
the non-listed religions, non-recognized religions – say, such as
the Baha’is – there is no punishment. To kill a dog, a cat or a
Baha’i is the same thing. It is no matter of the law because they
have no legal status. They do not religiously and politically exist.
Similarly, for sexual relations between a non-Muslim man and a
Muslim woman, the penalty for the non-Muslim is death. And of
course, the penalty for homosexuals of whatever religion is death.
A new proposed penal code has been presented to the Iranian
Parliament which would institutionalize its current practice that
it would require with no possibility of reprieve, annulment that
the penalty for heresy or for apostasy -- leaving Islam-- is death.
Article 112 of this, this penal code also emphasizes the law will be
extraterritorial. This means, incidentally, if this law is in fact
passed, under Iranian law Barack Obama should be executed as
an apostate. With the development of Iran next door to them, the
Saudis redoubled their own efforts to export their own version of
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radical Islam. They proclaim themselves, on many occasions, the
Muslim Vatican -- a very un-Muslim term -- and now, by most
best estimates, spend some three billion dollars exporting their
radical version of Islam around the world. That’s somewhat
more, that’s about three times as much as the Soviet Union used
for ideological purposes at the height of its power. If one travels
to a moderate Muslim country, such as Indonesia, or if you travel
throughout Africa, you will find Saudi-funded mosques, Imams,
lectures, sermons, students, books, videos, fatwas propagating its
own reactionary version of Islam. The Iranians seek to do the
same. One result of this, though there are homegrown radical
movements, with this organizational push behind them, one sees
the growth of radical Islam throughout the world. Some
examples: when Pakistan was founded it was not founded –
ROBERT SIEGEL
[OVERLAP] One.
PAUL MARSHALL
…as an Islamic country. The Ali Jinnah – the man who founded
the country -- said, whether you’re a Muslim or you’re a non-
Muslim is no matter of the state. But now they have introduced
blasphemy laws, which include the death penalty, particularly
used on religious minorities. In Sudan, the government has
instituted laws and propagated genocidal wars against the south
in Darfur, killing some two million and two hundred and fifty
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thousand, respectively. In Nigeria, some fifty thousand people
have died in conflict over the introduction of radical Islam. We
see this phenomena repeated throughout the world and one could
give very many more examples. One sees it even in, growing in
Malaysia and Indonesia – historically very moderate countries.
One result is that in Freedom House’s rankings of the world’s
twenty un-free countries, the majority now are Muslim.
ROBERT SIEGEL
Paul Marshall, thank you very much for your opening statement,
in support of the motion --
PAUL MARSHALL
[OVERLAP] Okay, the crucial confluence of ideas is not between
the West and the Muslim world –
ROBERT SIEGEL
[OVERLAP] -- Islam is dominated by radicals. [AUDIENCE
RESPONSE]
PAUL MARSHALL
…it is within the Muslim world. Thank you.
ROBERT SIEGEL
Thank you. [APPLAUSE] Now the first opening statement
opposed to the motion: Islam is dominated by radicals. The
speaker is Reza Aslan.
REZA ASLAN
There is something peculiar about the way that this debate
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tonight is being worded. The idea that we could, from our
comfortable perches here in Manhattan, pass judgment on the
beliefs and practices of a billion and a half people in every corner
of the world. And despite Mr. Marshall’s comments, we’re not
here to talk about whether Saudi Arabia or Iran is dominated by
radicals. We’re here to talk about whether Islam is dominated by
radicals. So I suppose it’s not surprising that a large percentage
of people in this room would believe that Islam – unquestionably
the most eclectic, the most diverse religion in the history of the
world – is dominated by radicals. After all, no field work or
research is necessary to come to such a conclusion – just turn on
your television, watch your nightly news. Now, of course, we’re
not children in this room. We all recognize that the purpose of
commercial news is to sell commercials – which, by the way, is
why I only get my news from NPR, Robert.
ROBERT SIEGEL
Thank you, yes. [LAUGHTER]
REZA ASLAN
And what sells commercials, of course, is violence and terror.
You all know this. So then if there are violent protests about,
let’s say, against deliberately provocative cartoons of the prophet
Mohammed in a Danish newspaper, that’s a story. However, if a
racist politician in The Netherlands makes a movie – we’re talking
about Geert Wilders here -- makes a movie comparing the Koran
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to Mein Kampf and requesting its abolishment in the entire
country and no protests erupt, the lack of protest is not a story.
There is simply no story.
Similarly, if the Pope makes some controversial comments about
the prophet Mohammed and there are mass protests on the
street, that’s a story. If the Pope goes to Turkey and no mass
protests erupt, it’s not that the lack of protests is a story. There
is no story. And I can tell you because I was there with CNN. Of
course, much of this debate tonight – and in…and indeed, much
of the debate about Islam in general is based not only on the
media but on firsthand anecdotal evidence provided by,
quote/unquote, insiders. And I’m sure you’ll hear plenty of that
tonight from Asra and Daveed. How the experiences of the
colleagues for the motion in confronting radicals in their own
communities has given them the knowledge necessary to judge
the beliefs and practices of a billion and a half people, I’m not
sure. I will say that if I based my views of Catholicism on the
stories that I hear from my former Catholic friends and on the
media reports about Catholicism, I’d pretty much have to assume
that Catholicism is dominated by sadistic pederasts.
But of course that’s not true. So then I suppose the real question
here is why do we keep asking pundits and politicians and writers
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and public intellectuals what Muslims think? Why don’t we just
simply ask Muslims themselves? This is, after all, not so arduous
a task. In fact, the Gallop organization – the most trusted polling
organization in the world -- has already done the work for us by
conducting the largest, most comprehensive poll of the Muslim
world ever done. According to that poll, a mere seven percent of
the world’s Muslims – not Arabs – seven percent of the world’s
Muslims believe that the attacks of 9/11 were justified. Now,
more interestingly, Gallop went a little bit further and actually
asked those seven percent why they believe the attacks were
justified.
And the responses fly in the face of conventional wisdom. For
example, in Indonesia – the largest Muslim country in the world,
and frankly, quite a pluralistic and successful democracy -- not a
single respondent, not a single respondent in Indonesia cited the
Koran as justification for the attacks of 9/11. Indeed, seventyfour
percent of Indonesians, eighty-six percent of Pakistanis,
eighty-one percent of Bangladeshis and eighty percent of Iranians
said that attacks against civilians were, quote, never justified --
never. Now, please compare that to forty-six percent of
Americans who said the same. In fact, the Gallop poll found that
in all Muslim countries the majority of those Muslims who,
quote/unquote, support violence or what we can refer to as
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radical views or tendencies do so for markedly secular – that is,
political – reasons.
Robert Pape found similar tendencies in his comprehensive study
of suicide bombing. He found that ninety-five percent of all
suicide terrorism is, quote, not driven by religion as much as by
clear strategic – read, political – objectives. In short, when we
talk about radicalism in the Muslim world we are talking about
political radicalism, which after all, in a globalized world is not
that odd. Why are these political goals so often couched in the
language of religion – and in this case –
ROBERT SIEGEL
[OVERLAP] One.
REZA ASLAN
…the language of Islam? Well, it’s because in every society
religion holds the most currency with the masses. In every
society religion provides a powerful language to create simple
collective identities and to urge collective action. In every society
the language of religion has the power to distill the most complex
sociopolitical issues into the simplest of choices – good versus
evil, us versus them. As I say, this is true of every society, ours
especially. And if you don’t believe me, I suggest you ask Karl
Rove. Thank you. [APPLAUSE]
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ROBERT SIEGEL
Thank you, Reza Aslan, for that opening statement. Now,
speaking in support of the motion: Islam is dominated by
radicals, Asra Nomani.
ASRA NOMANI
So I would say assalamu alaykum to all of you, but according to
the prayer book that I was handed when I went on the pilgrimage
to Saudi Arabia, I’m not allowed to say this peaceful greeting to
those who aren’t Muslim. When I see that headline: Islam is
dominated by radicals, I don’t hesitate in believing it to be true.
The opposite side wants to suggest that we can’t tell you stories
from the trenches. But it is, in fact, in the trenches where we
know what is happening, that we know that the radicals are, in
fact, intimidating, silencing and paralyzing the moderates. I
know it from my lifetime in the Muslim community and I know it
from stories and anecdotes, sure, and historical and country
cases. When I was given this proposition I asked my mother – a
grandmother, who has taught me my Muslim prayers, who is
teaching her grandchildren the prayers – I said, Do you think that
Islam is dominated by radicals? You can dismiss her as an
anecdote. You can dismiss her as somebody who isn’t pundit
enough but she’s got her finger on the pulse of what’s going on in
our communities. And she didn’t hesitate in saying yes. For the
last thirty years that I have known, since the exportation of
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Wahabiism from Saudi Arabia to the far reaches of our Muslim
world, I know that our community is dominated by radical
ideology.
I know that it is an ideology that has taken root in countries from
Pakistan to states in Nigeria to provinces in Indonesia with laws
that put women in second class status, that give women criminal
punishments because of sexual crimes. In each instance you
could say that there’s a political purpose. But at the end of the
day it is done in the name of Islam. I don’t stand up here and
condemn my faith. I fight for it every single day. I fight for a
progressive interpretation of our faith. But at the end of the day
our religion, our institutional Islam out there in the world -- from
my home town of Morgantown, West Virginia to Islamabad,
Pakistan to Indonesia to Riyadh, Saudi Arabia – we are controlled
and dominated by radical ideology. The moderates don’t want to
lose their status. They don’t want to lose their place in the
community. They don’t want to lose their invitation to the
potluck dinner parties and wedding halls that they get to go to.
It’s an issue of social dynamics. At the end of the day it isn’t
worth it to them to take on the radical ideology because there’s
too much at stake. You risk your own safety and then you risk
your social standing. I know this as a woman in the faith. I
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know that what we are struggling with is a situation where more
mosques in America than in the 1990s are putting women in
separate sections. Two-thirds of mosques in America versus half
in the 1990s have women separated. And you could argue that
that’s not radical ideology. But at the end of the day it is part of a
continuum of an interpretation of Islam that takes a literal read
that says a woman is sexual temptation, that a woman is sexual
distraction. You take that interpretation and it isn’t that long that
you have to also add up to an interpretation that says that you
can’t be friends with the Jews and the Christians, that violence is
acceptable.
Why do I know this? Because I’ve heard it from my pulpit. I’ve
heard it from the sermons that are downloaded on college
campuses across this country and across the world. There is an
exportation of this ideology. We may watch our borders, we may
check the visas of people who come into this country but I know
that there is an ideology that says that a woman is half the
witness of a man in criminal cases, that that is law in countries of
our, of our religion, that there is interpretation that says that a
woman gets less inheritance. When we put women -- half of our
population, in particular -- in second class status around the
world, you can call it anything you want. But I consider it
unacceptable and I call it radical ideology. It’s unacceptable to
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have tradition become religion with female genital mutilation. It’s
unacceptable to have honor killings, as we are, from Canada to
Texas to Turkey. You can call those anecdotes but it’s a trend.
It’s a trend that’s happening because our Islam of today is
dominated by radicals. We don’t have mosque leaders who are
keeping that kind of ideology in check. We are, in fact, having
leaders who accept preaching from the pulpit that says that we
cannot imitate the dis-believers, that we cannot say assalamu
alaykum to those who are not Muslim. At the end of the day what
I want you to know is that I stand up for Islam as a faith. I stand
up for the principles just like every other religion. But like
Judaism and Christianity have evolved so that there is a
continuum in institutional religion, so that there is a reform
synagogue along with the orthodox synagogue, our mosques are
defined by an institutional puritanical interpretation that to me is
very radical and very unacceptable. And I encourage you to vote
to support this motion because we need a truth telling. We need
to be honest.
ROBERT SIEGEL
One.
ASRA NOMANI
We need to not cower in the face of political correctness. A lot of
you may have hesitation because you think that if you vote for
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the motion you are voting and condemning Islam. I don’t stand
here before you saying that that is at all on the table. We can
stand up for religion that is not dominated by radicals, but we
can accept the fact when it is. And in our day, in the trenches in
the Muslim world from a mosque just a few blocks away from
here to Seattle, Washington to Dubai, we are facing a momentum
where the leadership is one that accepts radical ideology and the
moderates don’t stand up against it. So I encourage you to vote
for the motion and understand that it’s a vote for truth. Thank
you. [APPLAUSE]
ROBERT SIEGEL
Thank you, Asra Nomani. And now, an opening statement
against the motion from Edina Lekovic.
EDINA LEKOVIC
I will bid you assalamu alaykum, because that is what my faith
teaches me and that, regardless of who is in the pulpit, is what
the book teaches. When we consider the question of whether
Islam is dominated by radicals we have to look in terms of
absolute numbers and in terms of prominence and in terms of
symbols. Saying that Islam is dominated by radicals is much like
saying, is as absurd as saying that America is dominated by
murderers. Certainly they exist within our society and certainly
radicals exist within the fold of Islam. But do they dominate?
Absolutely not. Based on the polling data that Reza shared with
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you and based on so much other data that exists out there, the
people on the Muslim streets, both in the West and in the,
quote/unquote, Muslim world, are striving for freedom, for
freedom of speech, for democracy, for technology, for those very
things that they admire the West for.
That is what their faith is pushing them to do. Now, Islam is
dominated, if you will, by scholars, by average people more so
than anyone else, who are struggling to understand Islam in a
21st Century context and who seek to foster inclusion of Muslims
on the international stage and who want nothing more than to be
understood and to be respected, as that same poll showed over
and over again. To point to Saudi Arabia over and over again, I
will hand that to the other side. Saudi Arabia is no, by no means
the shining glory of any part of the Muslim world. But pointing to
pockets in no way reflects the overall picture, the overall reality.
Looking in a pocket or in many pockets in no way represents the
overall cost to, the overall character of the people and it is the
people who define the faith and who define their global
community.
The reality is that the moral – You know, when we look at where
this radical threat lies -- I travel across this country and around
the world. We can fight anecdotes with anecdotes. When I was in
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Malaysia a few years ago talking to youth on the streets there,
their single goal was to be understood. They wondered why
Americans didn’t understand them and why Americans thought
that they were all terrorists. When I traveled to Egypt it was the
same. When I traveled even to Bosnia, to the former Yugoslavia
where my parents are from, it was very much the same. The lack
of understanding on both sides of the issue has in many ways
been fueled by media perceptions as we have described here
earlier. The reality on the ground is this: radicals are failing in
their attempt to dominate. Radicals, those who make up Al
Qaeda and its various branches, are on the run. They are in
decline. Their messages are not reaching the audiences that they
seek to convert and to brainwash as much as they used to.
And that, to me, is an important symbol of the rise of moderation,
the rise of the middle, the rise of those who dominate this faith.
Even those in Al Qaeda – Ayman al-Zawahiri, who recently
released a tape – they have had to change their tactics because
they are receiving criticism from within the Muslim community.
They have had to respond to criticism about targeting civilians
and have had to answer these questions to the very people that
they are trying to recruit. And if we look even at the reality in
the, quote/unquote -- and I say again, quote/unquote -- Muslim
world, look even to Pakistan, where we saw that the radicals
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indeed killed Bhutto. But what did the people do in response?
They elected a secular government. They responded in a different
way. The people on the ground are the ones who are defining the
face and the nature and the character of the faith and of the
global Muslim community.
And again, what do they want? That’s what we have to
remember. They do not want death and destruction. They want
hope, they want economic ability, they want education and they
want a seat at the table. If we also look to the, where the war
against radicals is taking place, it’s almost entirely in the Islamic
world, between mainstream societies and governments on the one
hand and radical minorities on the other hand. Just look at what
Muslim scholars and Muslim leaders have been able to achieve in
the last few years and then we’ll ask ourselves, Why haven’t we
heard about it? In 2005 Jordan’s King Abdullah convened an
international Islamic conference of two hundred of the world’s
most leading Islamic scholars from fifty different countries. Those
scholars unanimously issued a ruling on three fundamental
issues – the validity of all interpretations of Islam, the eight legal
schools.
They forbade the declaration of apostasy between Muslims and
they further provided pre-conditions to issuing fatwas, since they
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have become such a currency on the international market and
have lost their meaning entirely. That’s one example. Another is
that a hundred and thirty-eight Muslim scholars joined together
to affirm freedom of expression -- scholars from around the world
– and to condemn the negative reactions to the Danish cartoons –
and which resulted, I think, interestingly, of the fact that there
was very little, if – very little reaction to the most recent Danish,
episode, if you will, of the film Fitna. And those same scholars
reached out to the Pope to establish a historic Muslim/Catholic
forum…
ROBERT SIEGEL
[OVERLAP] One.
EDINA LEKOVIC
…seeking opportunities for dialogue that they could do on an
international scale at the level of leadership and that could also
be modeled for their citizens and their countries and for the
faithful among them who wanted to see something different take
place. Internationally recognized leaders are calling for
integration, for tolerance and for advancement. And their reach
is ten times wider at least than that of Al Qaeda or any of their
associates. Just consider those, even in Turkey, which has
recently elected a new government but has taken the lead in
ushering in a historic re-examining of Islamic material to cater to
the contemporary world. That is just one among countless
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examples of people who are working day in, day out to re-emerge
as the dominant force within their faith and who are crying out
for attention on the world stage. Just consider this last example,
which is that, what –
ROBERT SIEGEL
[OVERLAP] I’m sorry. We’ll have to hear the last example later.
Thank you very much.
EDINA LEKOVIC
[LAUGHS] Where do the cameras turn? That’s the question.
ROBERT SIEGEL
Edina Lekovic. Thank you, [APPLAUSE] Edina Lekovic, for that
statement in support of the motion: Islam is dominated by
radicals. A couple of questions from me. Quickly, first for Paul
Marshall. Uh, if, as you argue, uh, Islam is dominated by
radicals, uh, why aren’t Indonesia, Malaysia, Bangladesh, uh, uh,
or for that matter, hundreds—tens of millions of Muslims in
India, all knuckling unto, uh, under to jihadist movements, and
creating Islamic revolutions in those country, why don’t—why
haven’t we seen more Islamic revolutions.
PAUL MARSHALL
Because most Muslims don’t like the radicals’ agenda. But—
ROBERT SIEGEL
They’re not dominated by it—
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EDINA LEKOVIC
Precisely. [LAUGHS]
PAUL MARSHALL
Well, no, I think if people have guns, if they have intim—if they
intimidate people, if they’re organized, if they have funding, if one
sees even in Indonesia the increase in radical movements, radical
Islam— radical imams, who were not there 10, 20, 15 years ago.
When you see in Indonesia the destruction of hundreds of
churches, where 10 years in Indonesia, 20 years ago you
wouldn’t— would never have seen that, people coexisted. So even
in places like Indonesia, in places like Bangladesh, in places like
Malaysia, even though most of the people don’t want it, you have
the growth of radical movements, and they often win, because
they intimidate and scare other people—
REZA ASLAN
Paul Marshall—
ROBERT SIEGEL
Okay, more—
REZA ASLAN
Paul Marshall knows that those churches are primarily Chineseowned,
and the Chinese form a socioeconomic community in
Indonesia that has been at great odds with the majority Muslim
population there and that a lot of those churches are not religious
violence. It’s ethnic, social violence, but more importantly, again,
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you know, here we go, we’re—we’re talking about this idea of, of
domination—
PAUL MARSHALL
By the way, most of the churches are non-ethnic Chinese.
REZA ASLAN
The majority of Christians in Indonesia are Chinese. Are of
Chinese ethnicity—
PAUL MARSHALL
And you—
REZA ASLAN
It is—
PAUL MARSHALL
—[UNCLEAR] that Laskar jihad does not justify its attacks that
way, it, it’s—
REZA ASLAN
No, no, of course not—
PAUL MARSHALL
—it’s just not a general religious war against Christians—
REZA ASLAN
But lots of—but again they don’t dominate—
PAUL MARSHALL
It’s just the primary group responsible for, for that violence—
REZA ASLAN
But that’s the point—is that, they do not dominate either the
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discussion about Islam in Indonesia, or the society of Indonesia
or the government, we’re talking— there’s one country in the
world—
PAUL MARSHALL
I agree with you and Edina that they don’t dominate the
discussions, the conferences, when people—
REZA ASLAN
Then what do they dominate—
PAUL MARSHALL
—get together—
EDINA LEKOVIC
Right.
PAUL MARSHALL
—but those don’t have much effect.
REZA ASLAN
No, what, what—
PAUL MARSHALL
The people— [OVERLAPPING VOICES] —the people with
professors, every time.
REZA ASLAN
What do they dominate—
ASRA NOMANI
They dominate actions. What I thought was really—
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ROBERT SIEGEL
Asra Nomani—
ASRA NOMANI
—interesting—what I thought was really interesting was that,
Edina, you even talked about the moderates reemerging as the
dominant force in the faith, an acknowledgement that they are
not the dominant faith—
[OVERLAPPING VOICES]
ROBERT SIEGEL
—I want to hear Edina answer the question from Asra Nomani—
ASRA NOMANI
I would like to just make the point that, talk is great to point out,
this is not a popularity contest of what Muslims mostly think. I
mean this is about our institutional faith, if you ask me. When
we talk about whether Islam is dominated by radicals,
domination to me is, do they have leadership in our communities,
and are they taking action that is representative of a violent
strain of Islam and I’d say yes.
ROBERT SIEGEL
Asra Nomani, thanks, and Edina Lekovic— Let me ask you a
specific question—
EDINA LEKOVIC
Sure—
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ROBERT SIEGEL
—by the way you spoke of Saudi Arabia as a pocket that we
shouldn’t take as representative any more than murderers in
America should be representative of American life. Wouldn’t you
concede that the role of Saudi Arabia, and Iran for that matter, on
the global stage, is far disproportionate to their numerical
position in Islam, they have influence beyond their own borders,
right—
EDINA LEKOVIC
Absolutely, but let’s consider also where that comes from, let’s
consider the kind of US support that Saudi Arabia also gets in,
you know, in reciprocity.
ASRA NOMANI
But what does—
EDINA LEKOVIC
Now in no way [APPLAUSE] …do I place any sort of validity or
endorsement on the Saudi ideology. Is it out there, are there’s
[sic] Korans out there that we fight problems with, absolutely.
But even the Saudi people would disagree in large part with what
their government is doing, and there is no foundation whatsoever
for the kinds of, you know, of distorted perceptions of faith that
they’re spreading on the ground. And that in no way represents
the global reality of Islam. Again, looking at pockets and trying to
turn them into global realities, we have to recognize and reinforce
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the majority. So that is—and that’s precisely what has happened
since 9-11 which is the point that I was trying to make, that’s
where the reemergence is taking place.
ROBERT SIEGEL
We have much more to come, we still have two opening
statements yet to hear, and we’re going to resume those now,
speaking for the motion, “Islam is dominated by radicals,” is
Daveed Gartenstein-Ross. Daveed.
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
It’s important before you cast your vote in this debate to think
carefully about the resolution, and to think carefully about the
way that we defined it. As we said in our very first speech, we
support the proposition that Islam is dominated by radicals, and
we define radicalism in relation to human equality. In the
Muslim world, is there belief in equality between religions? Is
there belief in equality between genders? Is there support for
basic freedoms, like freedom of speech, and freedom of religion?
The other side has not addressed these issues. Instead they’ve
changed the subject, speech after speech, and defined this
resolution only with respect to violence. There’s a reason that in
neither of our previous two speeches, did we talk about violence,
I’ll talk about it a little bit here because they’re bringing it up.
But they haven’t refuted any of our basic arguments about how
human equality is not being met in the Muslim world. We’ve
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talked about it in two different ways, we’ve talked about equality
in terms of freedom of religion, and we’ve talked about equality of
gender and they’ve said not one word on it. Their last speech, I
have to say, is a little late to do so. The reason this is important,
is because we need to understand the severity of the problem.
The reason we need to understand this, is because, if, in fact, the
Muslim world is dominated by moderates and neo-progressives
who are going to usher in a new era of prosperity and freedom,
then there’s not much that we in the West need to do about it.
But if on the other hand, radicals are ascendant, then we need to
play a bigger role, and we need to put greater emphasis on this
corner of the world. So the way we think about it fundamentally
matters, and it matters to those who are suffering under
totalitarian systems. Now, look at the key areas of the debate.
Look at freedom of religion. This is something that affects people.
In 14 Muslim countries, right now, it is illegal to change your
religion, in eight of these countries, it is punishable by death.
That is, you cannot convert out of Islam in these countries. That
does not support equality between religions. This is supported
also, by anti-proselytism laws, laws that prevent people from
other faiths from propagating their own faiths, while at the same
time Saudi money goes out throughout the entire globe,
propagating a Wahabist version of Islam. This also is supported
by anti-blasphemy laws. Laws that are used to suppress people
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who have a view of religion that does not conform with the very
stringent view that a state might have. Now they have a couple of
arguments here. One argument they made is polls. Now
unfortunately, their argument about the polls which is trying to
give you a broader view, only deals with violence. Well let’s talk
about polling a little bit. One recent poll, by Policy Exchange
that was undertaken in Britain back in 2006 shows that a
shocking 36 percent of British Muslims between the ages of 16
and 24, said that someone who converts from Islam to another
faith, should be punished by death. That’s within the West, you
get a 36 percent support for this. Now, 36 percent obviously is
not a majority. But what it shows, is the hegemony, as we
framed it, of radicals, the fact that these ideas are seeping into
the West, where people are familiar with Western customs,
Western freedoms, and have had a chance to live in them. Now,
the odd—but, and another thing about the polls incidentally, is
they’re not necessarily as benign as the other side makes them
out to be. For example, a recent poll conducted by Pew found
that 15 percent of Indonesians support—believe that violence in
defense of Islam is justified. Well 15 percent isn’t a whole lot.
But when you look at Indonesia which is the world’s most
populous Muslim country, you’re talking about 25 million people.
I find that number to be a bit disturbing. And it’s out of line with
what you’d find comparably Christians saying, in terms of
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whether defense of their faith is justified, whether violence is
justified, in terms of defense of Christianity. Now, that is
relevant to assessing whether this resolution is correct. Now,
moving on to other arguments that they made, Edina says, don’t
look at pockets, people define the faith. Well that’s nonresponsive,
because from the very first speech onward, we have
said, that the majority of Muslims do not support radicalism.
Rather, it’s that radicals enjoy hegemony, via institutions, via the
propagation of the faith. And Edina actually gives up the game
in her speech, because she concedes that Saudi Arabia is radical.
Remember, folks, we’re not talking about Al Qaeda here. The
question is not whether Muslims support Al Qaeda, it’s not
whether Al Qaeda has hegemony, it’s radicals. And Saudi Arabia
today, is the biggest country in terms of propagating a view of
Islam. And one reason that Reza, uh, feared that I might talk
about my view from the trenches, is that in a previous
incarnation before I was in counterterrorism, I was working for a
Saudi Arabian charity and actually got somewhat radicalized by
them, it’s in—in a book that you can read somewhere or other.
But the point is that, I’ve seen Saudi propaganda from the inside.
And Saudi propaganda does take root. If you look at countries—
and this is something that Paul talked about in the very first
speech. If you look at countries from Bosnia to Indonesia to
Somalia, countries that for a long time had a very moderate
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practice of Islam. As Saudi money has gone in there, and as
you’ve had these institutions, these mosques, these charitable
organizations, the practice of Islam has fundamentally shifted.
Things are not gonna get better on their own. Because, look at
the price of oil. Saudi Arabia is the world’s biggest exporter of
oil, in addition to the being the world’s biggest exporter of radical
ideology. And the price of oil is skyrocketing. Over $100 a barrel,
you have Hugo Chavez and others talking about how it should be
$200 a barrel. That’s not unrealistic. And with this power, with
this oil money, you’ll see these radical ideas continue to take
shape. Saudi Arabia is a powerful country. In conceding that
Saudi Arabia is radical, they fundamentally concede that this
debate is not about Al Qaeda. It’s about the radical institutions.
And those radical institutions are indeed taking foot. She says
look at the Muslim scholars. She says that they affirm freedom of
expression, and condemned the riots over the Danish cartoons.
But look at what the Organization of the Islamic Conference did,
the OIC. In response to the Danish cartoons, they—
ROBERT SIEGEL
One.
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
—pushed for a ban in the UN. They said that there should be a
new law to prevent cartoons like that coming up ever again.
These are cartoons that were published in the West. And the
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Islamic countries believe that it’s their right to make sure that the
West alters its precept of free speech, to conform with norms that
would be more suitable. That is why we’re saying, that radicals
have hegemonic power, and that’s why you should vote for this
resolution.
[APPLAUSE]
ROBERT SIEGEL
Thank you, Daveed Gartenstein-Ross, for that opening statement
in support of the motion and now speaking against the motion,
“Islam is dominated by radicals,” Richard Bulliet.
RICHARD BULLIET
Good evening. I think we can agree with most of what our
opponents have said. Just not with the proposition. We can
agree that Saudi Arabia is not a place that most of us would
particularly want to live. Saudis like to live there. But they have
a version of Islam, that is repugnant to many Americans, we can
agree with that. We can agree that, Saudi Arabia, both privately
and publicly, puts a lot of money into trying to spread their
version of Islam, this is what Mr. Marshall referred to as striving
for a political order that represents a reactionary version of
Islam—yes. Saudis are trying to do that. There are some other
groups, around the world who are trying to do that. And some of
them get money from the Saudis. We’re not going to deny that.
We’re not going to deny that women in many Muslim countries
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face what Asra said was an unacceptable situation. Yeah, they
do. Many others don’t, but many do. Nor are we going to claim
that religious equality or enjoyment of human rights as we
understand them in this country are universal in the Muslim
world. We’re not going to complain—to…raise an issue on any of
this. But that is what the proposition is. Proposition is, the
radicals dominate Islam. Now we’ve heard other words like,
hegemony. After all, as Daveed just said, 36 percent of British
Muslims think that apostasy deserves death, and that’s
hegemony—well, not by my count. 36 percent is 36 percent. You
want a majority if you want hegemony. The fact that in Britain,
virtually all of the Muslims come from one particular, rather
benighted part of Pakistan—and do not in any way, by any
measure, represent a cross-section of the Muslim world— should
also be taken into account. See, the problem is, and let me go
back to Mr. Rosenkranz’s very opening remarks. He was talking
about numbers that showed that in Muslim countries around the
world you have a lot of people who are anti-American. We do,
yeah. Well, you know…that I don’t think is un-understandable.
But the question is whether that has anything to do with Islam.
Or whether that is objecting to American policies. Now, if you
want to say that anyone who objects to US government actions is
by definition a radical, well then maybe you get somewhere but
even then I don’t think so because, what has not been talked
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about here, is the fact that most of the countries in the Muslim
world, are not governed by Muslim regimes. They’re governed by
autocratic dictatorships. Most of the political activity of Muslims,
that gives rise to strong political statements has to do with
opposing living under totalitarianism. Most of the people in the
Muslim world, have not, nor did their parents, nor will their
grandchildren in all likelihood, had any opportunity, to
participate in or choose the government under what they live.
Now, the fact of the matter is, that when they object to autocratic
rule, two things happen. One is, that they fall back on their
religious faith, and say, well, Islam can help us against this
autocracy, the second one is, they say, who is supporting the
dictatorships that we live in. Lo and behold, say it’s the United
States. So that when you have Muslims objecting to US policies,
it’s more frequently that they are objecting to the support the
United States gives to autocratic rule, whether it is in Egypt, or in
Saudi Arabia, or in Pakistan. This is the crux of the matter in
the Muslim world. You don’t have…most Muslims in the Muslim
world are not sitting there trying to decide whether they want a
Saudi, conservative, Puritanical version of Islam, or whether they
want, you know, Reza Aslan to be the Muslim pope, I mean this is
not— This is not where the debate is, it isn’t about what Islam is
like.
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PAUL MARSHALL
Good debate though.
RICHARD BULLIET
Good debate, yeah. What it’s about, is a billion people, two-thirds
of whom do not live in democratic systems, and who are looking
to their tradition and their faith tradition, to try to work for a
better life, and a more participatory role, in the polities that they
live in. And they find that, Islam is satisfying to them as a
political option. It isn’t the option that most of us would choose
but we do know that in this country, we do have many
Americans, who feel that religion is part of their political life.
Unless I miss my guess, this accounts for a big chunk of the
Republican party. But we sort of say, well, okay, here in New
York we don’t particularly like to talk about those people, but—
ROBERT SIEGEL
One.
RICHARD BULLIET
—nevertheless, the fact of the matter is that these people find
satisfaction in their turn to religion as an effort to stand up
against autocracy, and they find that the American support for
autocrats is reprehensible. And they discover that in the
American way of things there will be enormous publicity given to
anything negative about Islam, not just by the American press,
but because the various autocrats will feed the American
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government and the American press negative things because
they’re trying to protect the privileged position that they have set
up over the last 50 years of totalitarian rule. And therefore I
would say that, if there’s anything that’s dominating in the
Muslim world, not dominating in Islam but dominating in the
Muslim world, it’s dictatorship. Not radical Muslims.
ROBERT SIEGEL
Richard Bulliet, thank you very much for your opening statement.
[APPLAUSE] Before the panelists put questions to one another I
have a couple of questions, and first, Richard Bulliet. Would you
agree or disagree with the statement that Muslim clergy
worldwide is dominated by people who would want to see Islamic
law imposed in their societies and would prefer to live in a society
under Islamic law, do you think it’s true or false or no way of
knowing.
RICHARD BULLIET
Oh, I think that’s false, I held a conference a number of years
ago, exclusively devoted to Muslim political activists, held it in
Iman, Jordan. And one of the issues that we were supposed to
discuss was the idea of an Islamic republic. There wasn’t a single
person there.
ASRA NOMANI
They were Muslim political activists—?
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RICHARD BULLIET
Yes they were, they were from the Muslim Brotherhood, they were
from the Dawa party, they’re from the SCIRI [PH] party. They
were from a whole series of Muslim political parties in the Middle
East.
ASRA NOMANI
Mm-hmm.
RICHARD BULLIET
And none of them supported the idea of an Islamic republic.
ASRA NOMANI
Hmm.
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
And you believe that from a group whose message was the Koran
is our Constitution—
ROBERT SIEGEL
Daveed Gartenstein-Ross.
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
I mean, the Muslim Brotherhood is very clear on what their goals
are. Hassan al-Banna, talked about this, [UNCLEAR]—
RICHARD BULLIET
It was in the 1930s—
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
—Islamic state, and—
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RICHARD BULLIET
Yes, but—
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
—their motto remains, the Koran is our Constitution—
RICHARD BULLIET
You’re mistaking the 1930s or the 1950s with the Muslim
Brotherhood today—
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
Okay, Mohammed [UNCLEAR]—
RICHARD BULLIET
—talks about pluralism primarily.
ROBERT SIEGEL
I have a question for Daveed Gartenstein-Ross, before—you’ll
goad each other in just a moment here and I’ll—
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
Okay— [LAUGHTER]
ROBERT SIEGEL
Okay, Daveed Gartenstein-Ross, you seem to cite as evidence of
the fact that Muslims are dominated by radicals, the desire to see
restrictions in Europe on freedom of speech that included
cartoons that Muslims deemed blasphemous. In Europe, in
Britain for that matter, there are laws that restrict incitement to
race hate, which we find a violation of our First Amendment, do
you believe that laws that ban punishment of racist or antiMedia
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Semitic or anti-Islamist images or literature—that to support
such laws is a mark of an extremist, or in the context of Europe,
is it a part of the way in which the law has developed there that
has not created fascist societies in France, Italy and Britain
recently—
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
Well, you have to parse some of those laws, I mean there’s the
racial incitement laws which is one thing, and I don’t have a
problem with racial incitement laws. Then there’s vilification
laws. Vilification laws are adopted in some countries, France and
Italy are examples. Most countries in Europe do not have it,
including Britain. I do think—in terms of those, it’s debatable as
to why a country would have it, whether it’s evidence of
radicalism. But I think saying that every country in the world
should adopt a certain law to limit speech in the case of religion,
is evidence of radicalism—
ROBERT SIEGEL
But if a religious movement pressed for universal laws that would
ban degrading images or comments about their faith, would you
take that as per se a mark of extremism on behalf of that faith—
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
Not—not per se a mark of extremism, I agree with that but I think
that contextually I would define it as such, it looks like Paul has
something he wants to—
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ROBERT SIEGEL
Paul Marshall, you have something to add—
PAUL MARSHALL
Yeah, depends what the government is, you have through the
Organization of Islamic Confernce an effort going on, since about
1999, to repress through the international system, to repress
speech it says is critical of Islam, or blasphemous. Pakistan has
been big on this, Iran has been big on this, the Saudis have been
big on this. Remember, example, brief example I gave before is
Saudi democracy activists are accused of blasphemy. In Iran,
Akbar Gangi, the major dissident, was accused of insulting Islam.
Domestically these repressive regimes use charges of blasphemy
to squelch the opposition, basically they say, we represent Islam,
you criticize us, you criticize Islam, you’re a blasphemer. When
these regimes try to pushy this into the international sphere I
think it should be strongly opposed.
RICHARD BULLIET
But when you have autocratic regimes—
ROBERT SIEGEL
And Richard Bulliet—
RICHARD BULLIET
—that ban parties that use religion and so forth, you don’t object
to that. The Egyptians will not allow a religious party, the Turks,
you know, through constitutional court, they’re now trying to ban
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the governing party there, I mean…
PAUL MARSHALL
I don’t like that either—
REZA ASLAN
A governing—a governing party by the way which calls itself
Islamist and yet, has brought seven years of unprecedented
economic growth, has brought Turkey closer to the United States
and Israel than it’s ever been before, has given more freedoms
and rights to minorities, and ethnic minorities than it has ever
been before, but— They want to say that it’s okay if you’re a
woman, and you want to go to college, you can put a scarf over
your head, and, because of that, they’re seen as anti-democratic,
as violating secularism, as, you know, again this awful world
Islamist. So, you know, it’s not so easy to just kind of tag the
Muslim Brotherhood or the AKP as though the Muslim
Brotherhood by the way is one entity. According to something
that was written in the 1930s, you know, by Hassan al-Banna—
PAUL MARSHALL
Well, I’ll quote the current guardian if you want.
REZA ASLAN
You can—
ROBERT SIEGEL
Well, we can quote them as we go on through the evening. We
can quote all of the Muslim Brethren before we’re done,
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[LAUGHTER] but now, I’m sure you’ve all been wondering what
the person next to you really thinks about all this. And now
you’ll learn because I’m ready to announce the results of the predebate
vote. Before you were moved by the speakers,
[LAUGHTER] you were asked your opinion of the motion, “Islam
is dominated by radicals.” 46 percent voted for the motion, 32
percent against, and 22 percent were undecided. Now we’re going
to continue with the discussion section of the evening. I’m going
to ask each of you if you have a question for an individual on the
other side. And again, we’d like to hear a question put to the
person on the other side and first I’m going to ask Paul Marshall,
do you have a question for one of your adversaries here.
PAUL MARSHALL
Yes, Professor Bulliet. In arguing, you opposed our use of the
word “hegemony,” and said when, say, 30 percent or so of British
Muslim youth want to kill someone who rejects Islam, or believes
they should be killed, you said that’s not a majority, hegemony
equals majority. But, would you not agree that in the regimes
we’re talking about, if one is talking about Egypt, or Saudi Arabia,
or a vast number of other countries, the majority of the people
may oppose something. But surely you would agree that
currently the Saudi Arabian government is hegemonic, the
Iranian government is hegemonic in terms of what shapes that
country.
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RICHARD BULLIET
Oh, I agree—
ROBERT SIEGEL
Richard Bulliet.
RICHARD BULLIET
Yes, I mean—
PAUL MARSHALL
No, just stop there—
RICHARD BULLIET
The British— [LAUGHTER] The British government isn’t,
however, in that category. If you are going to say that the
government in any autocratic state, whether it is Saudi Arabia, or
Iran or Egypt, or Tunisia, or any of the other myriad autocratic
states where the government calls the shots, yes. The
government does call the shots and therefore you could say that
the government has a dominating or hegemonic role but if you
want to go down that route, then you find that most Muslims in
the world aren’t living in those states that you’re worried about.
They’re living in states that are governed by nationalists, secular,
or self-proclaimed secular autocracies, so, you know, you can’t
just single out Saudi Arabia and Iran, and say, this is the whole
of the law and the prophets—it just doesn’t work that way.
ROBERT SIEGEL
Question asked and answered, Reza Aslan, do you have a
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question for the other side, someone on the other side.
REZA ASLAN
Yes, I’ll ask this question of Daveed. I want to remind Daveed
first of all that, according to Freedom’s House definition of
democracies, the United States wasn’t a democracy until 1960.
But in that regard, Rice University two years ago did the most
comprehensive study of American religiosity ever done. And in
that study they found that not only do a third of Americans, one
out of three refer to themselves as evangelical Christians, but 46
percent, that’s almost half of American Christians, believe that
the Constitution and American laws should be changed in order
to match Christian law and Christian values, so—
ROBERT SIEGEL
Your question.
REZA ASLAN
—I imagine your response would be— [LAUGHTER] No, do you
or do you not then believe that America is under the
“hegemony”…of evangelical Christians. So therefore we are
dominated by radicals, correct?
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
Well—
ROBERT SIEGEL
Daveed Gartenstein-Ross.
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DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
—that would be a very relevant and interesting question if this
were a different resolution. In the end the resolution isn’t
whether the US is dominated by radicals or not. Now—
REZA ASLAN
No, I’m just curious about your answer—
ROBERT SIEGEL
Only get one question, yes—
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
I mean, looking at the specifics of it, it was 46 percent of 23
percent, I think, I don’t know, that seems to be about, 11 and a
half percent, my math could be a little bit off, you kind of went on
for a little while there. But what I will say is evidence of
hegemony, is when—
REZA ASLAN
No, no, 46 percent of 300 million, not—
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
46 percent—
REZA ASLAN
—46 percent of 100—
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
—of 300 million think that—well, I’d have to see the study, and
one thing that I can say is that I think that in the evangelical
community, which I’m a part of, there’s a lot of push-back
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against— I mean you were, you’re going on and on about the
AKP, and I actually agree with you on the AKP, I don’t think they
should be banned. But there’s a— there’s disagreement here
but, I don’t think they should be banned—
PAUL MARSHALL
No, no, no, I just like Turkey.
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
Okay—
ROBERT SIEGEL
The AKP is the Turkish—
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
The AKP is just—
ROBERT SIEGEL
—Islamist Party—
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
But, with respect to the United States, within the evangelical
community there’s a lot of push-back against religion simply
being pushed out of the sphere, the public sphere, 100 percent,
that’s the way the First Amendment has been interpreted for
some time. And I would say that some of the disturbing poll
results are not evidence of radicalism but instead, this pushback—
REZA ASLAN
So it’s not hegemony—
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ROBERT SIEGEL
The question—the question is answered—
REZA ASLAN
Actually it wasn’t.
ROBERT SIEGEL
And—well, it’s,—
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
Actually it was, Reza, but I appreciate your—
[OVERLAPPING VOICES]
REZA ASLAN
It is a sign of hegemony or it is not a sign of hegemony.
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
Um—
REZA ASLAN
46 percent wanting to—
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
Well actually I answered it—
REZA ASLAN
—to enforce Christianity—
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
—[UNCLEAR] which is that the question is not relevant. And I
don’t know what way they’d wanna do it, I haven’t seen the poll
results, I can’t judge.
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ROBERT SIEGEL
Thank you, Daveed Gartenstein-Ross. A question now, Asra
Nomani, you can put a question to one of the opponents of the
motion.
ASRA NOMANI
Well, Edina said earlier that to suggest that radicals dominate--as
is our proposition there--Islam is like saying that murderers
define America. So, 22 countries are the number of countries
that declare that Islam is the state religion. Of those, 14 say that
conversion of Islam is illegal. The good professor suggested that
in fact we are correct that, Islamic law in Saudi Arabia and all of
these other countries suggest inequity. So my question to you,
thank you—
ROBERT SIEGEL
Good point.
ASRA NOMANI
—is…the laws are defined by ideology that— represents inequity.
Most of the countries are governed by Islamic states, in the name
of Islam. How do you then argue that, there—the excuse is
autocracies, that the equivalent is as if murderers were running
America.
EDINA LEKOVIC
These countries are not the—the leadership does not even
proclaim to be running the country in the name of Islam. Again—
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ASRA NOMANI
Well, they have Islam as their state religion—
EDINA LEKOVIC
If I can answer—
ASRA NOMANI
—under Islamic law.
ROBERT SIEGEL
You’ve asked the question. The answer?
EDINA LEKOVIC
The Islamic law has been on the books for a period of time in
these countries. The leaders who are coming into the leadership,
are dictators who are following upon the heels of dictators, and
who are supported by international forces. The fact that these
laws exist on the books, are indeed still problematic. No one on
our side is denying any of that, these realities certainly exist on
the ground. However, we have to look at where they are enforced
and when they are enforced. Because even where Islamic law—
and we try to take Sharia and turn it into, as if it’s “the” Sharia,
that it’s a one-size-fits-all Sharia that exists in all of these
countries, nothing could be further from the proof. There is
different shapes and sizes and flavors of Sharia that exist in these
different countries. So we cannot pretend that they are all the
same. So, in these situations, in some of these countries, even
those rules around apostasy have long been unenforced. We have
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to look at where this rise has come from. And a lot of it, in my
mind, is a very reactionary action that has taken place. And
again, in no way defines what is taking place on the ground with
the people, I do not know why we are once again, over and over
again denying the realities of the people on the groined who make
up the dominant force within Islam.
ASRA NOMANI
Because this is not a homecoming queen contest.
EDINA LEKOVIC
And no one said it was. [LAUGHS]
ROBERT SIEGEL
Edina Lekovic, it’s your turn to put a question to any of the three
supporters, movers of the motion.
EDINA LEKOVIC
Well, my question is for Paul Marshall. Last week, General
Petraeus testified before Congress and said that the Iraqi people
are turning on Al Qaeda, and that they are fighting them, and
that this is resulting in a reduced presence of Al Qaeda in Iraq.
And that this is a—and we see this as a rare glimpse of success in
our war policy. And pundits, and scholars, including journalists
who have been on the ground, in some of the very countries that
we are talking about, have also said that these— Al Qaeda being
the prime example, but other radical groups on the ground, that
their influence is also declining. Do you dispute that fact.
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PAUL MARSHALL
Okay. Just one quick comment, Edina, you are being very unfair.
As you know, I was on my honeymoon last week, and did not pay
too much atten—
EDINA LEKOVIC
I’m very jealous—
PAUL MARSHALL
…the only person who didn’t pay too much attention to what
General Petraeus said. [LAUGHTER] But the… I would be, I
wouldn’t have enough knowledge of on the ground in Iraq to
dispute that. But it may well be the case that sort of more
radical forces, not just the Al Qaeda types, but the Mahdi army
and these other groups, that the Iraqis are sort of getting fed up
with them and resisting them. This may well be the case. And,
obviously, I would regard that, I think most of us would regard
that as a good thing. But it would not, for me, make a difference
in terms of my overall view of dominant trends in the Muslim
world, in Africa, Asia—south Asia, southeast Asia and so forth.
ROBERT SIEGEL
A question now, from Daveed Gartenstein-Ross for one of the
opponents of the resolution.
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
All right, I’m going to ask it to Reza since we seem to be the two
boxers of the bunch. And it will—my question will not go on and
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on and on, rather, it’s—
REZA ASLAN
And I’ll—
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
—somewhat to the point—
REZA ASLAN
And I’ll actually answer it.
[LAUGHTER, APPLAUSE]
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
Touché—
ROBERT SIEGEL
You both set a very high standard for this event— [LAUGHTER]
EDINA LEKOVIC
It’s really impressive.
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
So, I’m interested actually in your answer. You talked about the
polls on violence during your first speech. My question is, first of
all do you still find the raw numbers disturbing, I talked a bit
about the Pew study on Indonesia, 15 percent equates to 25
million people who support violence in the name of the religion.
And then second, do you find it disturbing, regardless of whether
they name religion as one of their motivating factors for it, which
was one of the points that you made as well.
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REZA ASLAN
Actually what you said was 15 percent of Indonesians would
resort to violence in defense of their religion, I can’t believe it’s as
little as 15 percent. I would be shocked if it were less than 50
percent. Religion in every culture including ours, is not just
beliefs and practices, it’s identity. And if someone were coming
to my country to attack me, attack my identity, you’re damn
right, I would resort to violence to deflect that attack. Now, you
made the point that, we would assume that, ask a bunch of
American Christians that same question and of course it—the
number would be much less than 15 percent. I think you’re
right. However, let’s ask a bunch of Christians—
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
But, pugilistically, when Andres Serrano’s—
REZA ASLAN
Why don’t we—
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
—Piss Christ came out, Christians weren’t rioting on the streets.
Whereas with the Danish cartoons you had over 100 people killed
throughout the world.
REZA ASLAN
Yeah, actually Nigerian Christians were massacring with
machetes Muslims, just as Muslims were massacring Christians.
But let me just say, it may be right that, you’re not going to get
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similar numbers of Christians if you ask let’s say Americans, but
ask that question of Guatemalans. Ask that question of people in
San Salvador. And I think you’re going to get a different answer.
Religion is who you are, if who you are is under attack, you fight
back, period, whether you’re a Christian, or whether you’re a
Muslim. The reason that we—there are so few Americans who
feel that way is— I mean saying that my religion is under attack
because I can’t pray in my classroom, is not being under attack.
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
As opposed to there being cartoons ridiculing your religion?
[LAUGHTER]
REZA ASLAN
Yeah, as a matter of fact, yeah, as that’s—
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
As a—oh, as a matter of fact, so you do think that it’s okay to riot
in response to, you think that that’s okay—
REZA ASLAN
I think it’s perfectly okay to protest those cartoons.
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
And to kill people?
REZA ASLAN
No, but that’s—
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
Over 100 people died.
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REZA ASLAN
No, no, no, but that’s different, what you’re saying is, should I act
in defense of my religion—
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
Clearly, to commit acts of violence, it’s not act in defense of
religion—
REZA ASLAN
Should I act—should I act violently—
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
It’s commit acts of violence, that’s what the survey said—
REZA ASLAN
Should I act violently in defense of my religion, absolutely. If
the—if what that means is, that it’s my identity, that people are
on the ground attacking me—
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
And this goes to show why Islam is dominated by radicals—
REZA ASLAN
It’s sort of— [LAUGHTER, APPLAUSE] No. It’s a very…
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
No, no.
REZA ASLAN
It’s just, it’s a—
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
Sorry, dude, I got the last applause line. [LAUGHTER]
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REZA ASLAN
It’s a very superficial and unsophisticated view of religion to think
that what we’re talking about here is if someone is offended by
something about their religion—
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
So the people—
REZA ASLAN
—then they’ll react with violence—
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
—who died should yield to the fact that—
REZA ASLAN
When people act—
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
—they’re unsophisticated—
REZA ASLAN
When people are acting—
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
—in their knowledge that they died.
REZA ASLAN
When people are asked, would you resort to violence to defend
your religion, I guarantee you that the people in Indonesia who
answered that question, were not talking about being offended,
they were talking about actually defending their lives and
livelihood which by the way is a very real thing, when you see the
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war on terror being understood—
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
It’s also very real in Indonesia—
REZA ASLAN
—not just in the Muslim world—
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
—four islands to be directed [UNCLEAR]—
[OVERLAPPING VOICES]
ROBERT SIEGEL
One last [UNCLEAR]—
REZA ASLAN
—as an attack on Islam, this isn’t just Egyptians or Jordanians or
Iraqis who think this. These are British non-Muslims who think
this. Around the world, the majority view is that the war on Islam
is a war against Muslim identity, it’s a—
ROBERT SIEGEL
War on terror—
REZA ASLAN
It’s—I mean I’m sorry, the war on terror, is a war against Muslim
identity, this is a—
ROBERT SIEGEL
On that note—
REZA ASLAN
—very real issue.
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ROBERT SIEGEL
I think—
REZA ASLAN
So if I’m asked…are you—would you react if someone were to
violate your beliefs, in defense of your beliefs—
ROBERT SIEGEL
Yes.
REZA ASLAN
—then we’re not talking about being offended.
ROBERT SIEGEL
But Reza, you were asked—
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
That’s not what we’re talking about—
ROBERT SIEGEL
—and you’ve answered the question. And we have one last
question from a panelist for the other side from Richard Bulliet.
RICHARD BULLIET
Yeah, I’ll—I think we’ve gotten too serious, we’ll move on to some
whimsy. [LAUGHTER] So this is for Daveed. You finished your,
your talk with, what [LAUGHS] struck me as an absolute
absurdity, namely that the price of oil is somewhat equatable to
the dominance of radical Islam. And it made me think, gee… if
we can only solve our energy problem, will radical Islam go away?
[LAUGHTER] Because, you’re making a remark— The only
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person who has ever really pursued this in print was Dan Pipes in
his first book, saying that, radical Islam is purely a product of oil
prices—I think it’s an absurdity.
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
Well, it—well, okay, the way you frame it it is, but that’s not what
I said. What I said, going off Edina’s remarks that Saudi Arabia
is radical, is I talked about how the fact—how I used to work for a
Saudi charity that did propagate radical material. So I’ve seen
this firsthand, and can say that Saudi charity, Saudi institutions,
Saudi imams, make a difference throughout the world. And the
reason why they’re so widespread, is indeed because Saudi Arabia
has a lot of money to spend, due to its oil revenues. The point I
was making was simply that oil revenues aren’t going to dry up
any time soon. Rather, the price of oil is skyrocketing. And as a
result, these institutions are out there, far more than they were
before. That goes to the point of hegemony. That goes to who
has the power—
RICHARD BULLIET
Oh, that—but let’s—
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
—who has the money, who’s installing the imams. And indeed—
RICHARD BULLIET
That goes to the point—
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DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
[UNCLEAR]—
RICHARD BULLIET
—of whether the Saudis are trying to export—
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
[UNCLEAR]—
RICHARD BULLIET
—their form of religion. And we’re perfectly willing to grant, the
Saudis are trying to export it, but you haven’t demonstrated that
the efforts the Saudis are making, are actually succeeding. All
you’ve done is saying that they’re doing it—
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
Okay, but we actually talked about that, Paul talked about that in
the very first speech. Where he talked about the changes in
Islam, in places like Indonesia, in the Balkans, in Somalia, look
at Somalia. Where you have a war wracking the country, where
the group formerly known as the Islamic Courts Union, now
known as the Alliance for Reliberation of Somalia, managed to
conquer the country, impose Islamic law in which people were
arrested for watching Pretty in Pink, in which a karate instructor
who had female students was arrested, where people were
arrested for watching the World Cup. That stuff was unheard of
in Somalia 30 years ago. And now—and today, that is the reality
on the ground. So I can say for a fact, that yes, this oil money
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and this dawa, is making a difference, and it’s making a
difference in the way that affects people’s lives.
ROBERT SIEGEL
Okay. You’re probably wanting to get in on this conversation—
[APPLAUSE] And now you can join in this civil discourse on the
question of whether [LAUGHTER] Islam is dominated by radicals.
We have microphones out in the audience, and if you’d like to
raise your hand, the people bearing the microphones will find
you. I’d like you to please not start to ask a question until we do
have a microphone in front of you, and make your questions
short and to the point. And if you are member of the press,
please identify yourself as such. I’m a little bit blinded by the
light, so I’m trying to see— Up in the left, yes, question—
JAMES TARANTO
My name is James Taranto and I am a member of the press—
ROBERT SIEGEL
Good—
JAMES TARANTO
—I’m with The Wall Street Journal. I—this question is for any or
all on the side for the motion. Has the—to what extent has—or
on the whole let’s say, has, have the political changes in Iraq over
the past five years strengthened or weakened the domination of
Islam by radicals.
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DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
In—
ROBERT SIEGEL
This is Daveed Gartenstein-Ross, you want to answer that?
DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS
Okay, sure. I think that the changes in Iraq have had both
effects. On the one hand, I think the Iraq war has clearly been a
rallying point for radicals, and whether that’s justifiable or
unjustifiable is something that people can decide on their own.
But clearly, it’s been a great recruiting ground for Al Qaeda and
others. The flip-side of that is that, we had some discussion
before of the anti-jihadist movements that are there, things like
the Sakwa [PH] movement. And those have had a cognizably good
impact. I think on the whole, uh, the fighting there is something
that is energizing of radicals in the Muslim world without a
question. And that’s not going to stop regardless of the Sakwa
[PH] movement.
ROBERT SIEGEL
Where is our next question coming from, on the right.
FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER
First of all I think this has been addressed on, pretty much one
level, “Islam is dominated by radicals” has a multitude of
meanings. Not just political, and I was very moved at what Miss
Nomani said, talking about the—how women were treated in this
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religion. And, I don’t know obviously, I’m not an expert on the
Muslim religion, but I do know several women in New York who
go to mosques and are placed in separate areas who cannot go
out with a man or be seen with a man without a chaperone. And
any union has to be…has to be validated by the head of the
mosque. —
ROBERT SIEGEL
Question—
WOMAN IN AUDIENCE
—I think, I think—and this, my question is to Edina. What do
you think of the absolute bare-bones question of, as I say,
microcosms grow into macrocosms, of bare-boned questions of
human rights in that issue.
EDINA LEKOVIC
Bare-bones questions of human rights, well… Okay. When it
comes to the issue of women in mosques, what we see— I can
speak again anecdotally and I can speak empirically, it’s a matter
of what the audience would like to hear. When it comes to
anecdotal things, you said something about the union of
marriages, in any church the union of two people must be
sanctified by that, by that religious institution. On the question
of chaperones, there is, it in many ways, is a product of culture
than of religion. There is what has been practiced by my family
for generations is what is then being practiced. I think this
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question of religion and culture and the weaving of the two, is one
of the central questions that we face within the global Muslim
community today. And the reality is that Islam looks and feels
and tastes different, no matter where you go. Regardless of who
is in power, because of the question of culture and of identity that
we are considering here. Is there a very real—
ROBERT SIEGEL
Including on the subject—
EDINA LEKOVIC
Yeah, is there a very real—
ROBERT SIEGEL
—particularly about the women.
EDINA LEKOVIC
Is there a very real problem, when it comes to the treatment of
women in mosques and in human rights issues, absolutely. Is it
the dominant force for Muslim women and their lives? I would
argue with that point. Because I, based again on my travels, on
my experience, and on my interaction with the data that’s out
there, there are just as many women who are, when they have an
education, when they have access… And that’s, again, we have
dividing lines, we can’t separate the question of human rights,
when there is a lack of education, where there is poverty, where
there are these surrounding issues, it is not simply a matter of,
of, you know, of religious teachings. Because, there are, you
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have the Benazir Bhuttos. You have the women heads of state in
Bangladesh and Pakistan and Indonesia and other places. You
have Queen Noor of Jordan and Queen Rania, you have these
other examples that exist out there, and they are just as much
role models for Muslim women as are the problems that they are
facing. These are both—these are two sides of the same reality,
but absolutely, there’s a very real problem on the ground, and it’s
one that is being faced by NGO’s, by civil society groups, and by
women themselves on the ground. And that’s what I— that’s
what I’m really trying to put the attention on here. Is that there
is an active fight taking place on the ground. An active fight.
ASRA NOMANI
And there has to be a fight because— [APPLAUSE] There has to
be a fight, I want to just make the point again—
ROBERT SIEGEL
Asra Nomani—
ASRA NOMANI
—there has to be a fight because the leadership is dominated by
radicalism.
EDINA LEKOVIC
And by patriarchy—
ASRA NOMANI
In— yes, patriarchy is a form of radicalism if you ask me—
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EDINA LEKOVIC
As it is in other parts of the—
ASRA NOMANI
Sure, but—
EDINA LEKOVIC
—non-Muslim world—
ASRA NOMANI
Right, but unfortunately, our society, our Muslim society is
defined right now by a patriarchy that, the Christian and Jewish
societies have evolved beyond.
REZA ASLAN
You’re confused—
ASRA NOMANI
Oh, I’m sorry. [LAUGHTER] I’m sorry, I didn’t just get censored
in Dubai because I wanted to talk about women’s rights. Oh, I’m
sorry, the mosque up the street didn’t tell me that I couldn’t pray
in the main hall, because that’s not what a woman’s supposed to
do. Oh, I’m sorry, those men that surrounded me—
REZA ASLAN
Orthodox synagogues—
ASRA NOMANI
Excuse me—
ROBERT SIEGEL
Reza—
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[OVERLAPPING VOICES]
ASRA NOMANI
—orthodox synagogues are a portion—
REZA ASLAN
Catholic churches—
ASRA NOMANI
Excuse me—
REZA ASLAN
—women can’t become priests—
ASRA NOMANI
They’re a portion of—
REZA ASLAN
—they can’t serve, you know—
ASRA NOMANI
They’re a portion of the Jewish community but the end of the
day—
REZA ASLAN
Absolutely, patriarchy’s—
ASRA NOMANI
—orthodox—
REZA ASLAN
—everywhere.
ASRA NOMANI
—orthodox ideology is what defines our communities. Two out of
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three mosques in America do not even allow a woman on the
board. That is a statistic—
REZA ASLAN
But, from where—
ASRA NOMANI
—that is—
EDINA LEKOVIC
Whose statistic is that, it’s very—
ASRA NOMANI
That’s the Council—
EDINA LEKOVIC
—easy to throw these things out there—
ASRA NOMANI
—Council on American-Islamic Relations who are, consider
themselves the NAACP of the Muslim world fighting for women’s
rights. I mean this is the reality. We can talk politics, we can
talk all sorts of, you know, dictatorships, ultimately, we’re dealing
with bullies in the community who want to push their radical
ideology—
[OVERLAPPING VOICES]
ROBERT SIEGEL
Asra Nomani, but it would be—one could infer from what you’ve
said that, a hundred—at the start of the last century that all of
Western civilization was dominated by extremists.
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ASRA NOMANI
And have we not gotten at least some movement where we have
churches now, where we have women as priests. Where we have
Catholic women who are—
EDINA LEKOVIC
And they’re still fighting—
ASRA NOMANI
—fighting for the right to—
EDINA LEKOVIC
They are fighting—
REZA ASLAN
We have mosques where women are imams, so—
ASRA NOMANI
Oh, really.
REZA ASLAN
Very small percentage—
ASRA NOMANI
I’d love to go to them, in China, in some rural areas, oh, I’ll take a
trip there but, I don’t think—
REZA ASLAN
Oh, no, in the United States—
ASRA NOMANI
Oh, really, Reza, tell me where I could go—
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REZA ASLAN
Absolutely, there’s a Zaytuna Institute, the only seminar—
ASRA NOMANI
Right—
REZA ASLAN
—in the United States—
ASRA NOMANI
Right—
REZA ASLAN
—trains as many women—
ASRA NOMANI
Right—
REZA ASLAN
—imams as—
ASRA NOMANI
Women imams to teach—
REZA ASLAN
—as it trains male imams—
ASRA NOMANI
—the women. You know, because they’re acceptable for the
sisters, but at the end of the day, they’re not good enough for the
men—
ROBERT SIEGEL
Another que—
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ASRA NOMANI
And that to me is unacceptable.
ROBERT SIEGEL
Another question from the audience. Here, sir.
MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER
I’d like to ask about Islam, from the standpoint of its own
historical context, rather than from the prism of our absolute,
individual standards or mixing the Muslim apple with the
Christian orange if you will, which doesn’t take us very far. If we
begin, say 950 years ago, when Islam was arguably the
intellectual capitol of the world, since then there’s clearly been a
trend of insularity and anti-intellectualism in the past thousand
years, assuming that is true, what has been the trend in terms of
tolerance, and radicalism, and in particular, not just the last
thousand years but the last 100 and last 50 years.
ROBERT SIEGEL
Dick Bulliett—
REZA ASLAN
You can handle that, Dick—
RICHARD BULLIET
I’d like to ask about that, it—you made a statement then you
said, “assuming that to be true.” Well, that’s a big assumption.
You’re talking about 950 years, you’re talking about roughly the
year 1100. Right? Okay. It is a commonplace—the history of
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Western culture, that Europe was behind at one point, and then
at a certain point Islam stagnated and became backward,
whereas Europe leapt ahead, and created the modern world.
MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER
Thanks to Islam, in large part.
RICHARD BULLIET
In large part, based on borrowings in one way or another from
Islam. But the notion that Islam stagnated is contrary to
historical fact in certain ways. In particular, over half of all the
people in the world today who are Muslims, are the descendants
of people who converted to Islam after this alleged period of
stagnation. Islam’s greatest success, in terms of the growth of a
faith community, was in the period when Europeans are claiming
that, uh, that Islam was stagnant. What happened in that
period, was that you had an enormous, and very complex,
interaction of Islam with communities in all parts of the world…
east Asia, southeast Asia, south Asia, Africa, Europe, Eastern
Europe and so forth, and Islam became immensely richer and
more complex, through this interaction. Now, some people say,
well, Europe was open to all sorts of new ideas, but in fact Europe
was open—was open to its own new ideas. There’s not a single
major idea in European history that actually came from anywhere
except Europe. Because Europe has been a kind of closed—or
Euro-American society—been fairly closed to the conceptual life,
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the spiritual life, so forth of other parts of the world. Islam is
remarkably open. And, so I think it’s a question of, if you say
that all that counts, is who gets rich, and who wins wars, and
who’s able to set up an imperialist system, then you have one
argument. But if you’re talking about the notion of stagnation,
Islam certainly did not stagnate in that period. This was a period
of enormous growth and development of complexity and
intercommunal cross-fertilization.
ROBERT SIEGEL
We have time for another question from the audience, and,
somewhere in the, somewhere in the back, I can’t see.
FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER
Hello.
ROBERT SIEGEL
Hi.
FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER
So according to a 2007 Pew study, over 60 percent of Muslims
in America identified as moderate, and I was hoping that—
ROBERT SIEGEL
Identify as, excuse me?
WOMAN IN AUDIENCE
Moderates. So I was hoping that Asra can elaborate a little bit on
it, why again are…why is Islam dominated by radicals?
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ASRA NOMANI
Because—
ROBERT SIEGEL
Asra Nomani.
ASRA NOMANI
Like I said before, I mean this is not a conversation about the
majority of Muslims. We’re talking about whether Islam is
dominated. Dominated to me means institutional Islam, it means
the people who are running our mosques, the people who are
running our—our organizations. It means, this establishment
that it call Wahabism Incorporated, that is basically not just, you
know, a pocket, an empty—an empty anecdote. It is an empire
out there in the world that is defining our community. This isn’t
a popularity contest about whether we want moderate expression
of Islam or not. This is about who’s running our communities.
And I can tell you that institutional Islam is representing a
radical ideology that may not represent what most of Muslims
believe, but at the end of the day, it’s not worth the trouble for
most Muslims to battle them. I can tell you from the trenches,
the struggle to battle that kind of institutional Islam is painful.
You lose status, you get death threats, you get all sorts of abuse.
And this is what happens whenever you challenge the authorities,
and right now the authorities represent radical Islam.
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ROBERT SIEGEL
Closing statements from all six panelists now, two minutes each,
and then we’ll have you vote on these arguments that you’ve
heard, starting with a panelist against the motion, “Islam is
dominated by extremists,” Reza Aslan.
REZA ASLAN
I guess the question has to be once again, what exactly are these
radicals do